Home/Library/Interview with Kathleen Dannemiller

Edited Interview with Kathleen Dannemiller
December 9, 1997

From Entre Nous (Vol. 2, Issue 1)
A publication of the Midwest Organizational Learning Network

Kathleen Dannemiller is co-founder of Dannemiller Tyson Associates. She was mentored by Ron Lippitt at the University of Michigan and at the National Training Laboratories (now the NTL Institute). In the early 1980's Kathleen, working with Ford Motor Company, developed a powerful method for whole-scale change. Commonly referred to as Real Time Strategic Change (RTSC), her work is documented in many places including "Large Group Interventions: Engaging the Whole System for Rapid Change", by Bunker and Alban (Jossey-Bass, 1997)

Roger: Why do you think large scale change is becoming so important?

Kathleen: It was always important but the world didn't know. So what you're really saying is why is the world noticing now. I don't know the answer, but I know the need. Any company anywhere, now-a-days, says they have to change quickly. You have presidents who say "We've got to change or we're going to die!" Somebody says, "Have you heard about Harrison Owen? Have you heard about Future Search? Have you heard about Whole Scale Processes?" And they say "Can those processes do it faster? Well, let's try it!"

We call it "Whole Scale" now. We used to call it Real Time Strategic Change and then we called it Large Scale and then we thought it's about thinking whole scale. You're not thinking pieces. How do we point ourselves so that every decision is connected around the mind and the heart? People who are getting deregulated or being whomped by the competition call us. Right now, there are a lot of requests from the utility industry.

Roger: Tell me more about having one heart in organizations.

Kathleen: ...and one brain. And all kinds of hands and feet. Everybody does things differently, but we need to bond, become one in what we know, which is the brain, and what we feel, which is the heart. If we see the same stuff through our heart and through our brain, I can go out into my plant or my hotel and feel part of a bigger picture and make decisions based on what I know about my customers and processes and stay connected to the whole.

I really saw it recently in India. This wonderful, retired, Boeing guy named Al Viswanathan, a Southern Indian, talked Roland Loup, my partner, and me into coming because he wanted to help his birth country become competitive...to give back to India what he learned in the West. One of the clients was a small truck plant called Eicher Motors. They were in the city of Indore, probably three hours from New Delhi. We were running a whole scale event...and we realized we couldn't run it in English! We needed union leadership, hourly workers and managers. Managers speak English, but the rest of the workers don't. Most of them speak Hindi but don't read or write it; they don't have schools like we do. It was an amazing learning process for me.

So here they are...their industry is being approached by Westerners who want cheap labor, right? One of the managers said to me, "We could get colonized again by these companies who want to use us. We are like kids in grade school, we don't understand the global economy." These hourly people who only talk Hindi...how are they going to know what is happening in the world? This is the brain part I'm talking about. They can have all kinds of heart but if they don't know what the game is, they don't know what's going on.

So we did it all in Hindi—I don't know a word of Hindi. We taught some Indian consultants who spoke English how to do the whole scale and we coached. We had 400 people...a microcosm of the whole plant that included every level, age, level of schooling... It was three whole days.

Ron Lippitt used to say the trick is to figure out who needs to be in the room and what conversations need to take place. It's engraved on my soul! So I was in Indore, India and we asked who needs to be in the room and what conversations do they need to have? They needed to get to "one brain". They needed to all see the same...I think of it as the Monopoly board...they needed to see all the pieces of that board. I believed that once they saw it, they would be able to think "one heart".

We brought in suppliers, we brought in their owners, we brought in a guy who was a global thinker from University of Bombay, and people who act like competitors. We brought in the picture of the world, and we got them talking to each other. On the third morning—it always happens on the third morning—when they became

'one brain", like pouring water on dried flowers, they became instantly "one heart". They about blew the roof off. It was astonishing! Oh, mercy! I mean I really saw it!

Roger: It seems that what we are missing in this country is the heart.

Kathleen: Only because we don't uncover it, but it's there.

Roger: Can you tell me how "whole scale change" emerged?

Kathleen: I am a consultant of the sixties...like Harrison Owen...Marv Weisbord...Peter Block. We all grew up in the sixties. And what we all grew up seeing was system. We were hippies in the sixties and we thought "system", it's the way we saw the world. Ron Lippitt—we all learned from people like Ron—would go out into the community and pull together a microcosm. He would get them, though he never called it this, to "one brain" and "one heart". Once we see and feel the same things we can come up with action plans. I learned that in Bethel, Maine, at the National Training Labs...as did Harrison...as did Peter...as did all of us. We each took it through our own soul in different ways and created an environment that fit our experience. We were different. Harrison was a Jesuit Priest and I was a middle class American housewife, for heaven sake!

In 1981, I was an Assistant Vice President at the University of Michigan, for student services, and I was teaching a course in Organization theory. I just loved it...it was incredible! Jim Crowfoot, a Professor, would teach them the elegant theory and I would take each theory and say, "here's how you do it".

I looked over one day and I thought, "What is happening to Detroit? It's dying!" That was when bumper stickers said, "Would the last person out of Detroit remember to turn out the lights?" And people were leaving! The national papers were talking about the "Rust Belt" and how we were finished. I thought, "It's the auto industry! If I know anything, shouldn't I help?" That's what I call "marketing"...to say to myself, "I wonder if I have anything to give? Well, let's go find out!" I said out loud, as if I had any sense whatsoever, "I want to save the auto industry!" And then I thought, that is about the most arrogant thing I have ever said in my entire life. I talked to several friends and said, "Can you believe I said this? God, that was obnoxious!" One of them called me—Al Davenport—and said, "Kathleen, there is this Executive Vice President at Ford who wants something. I doubt you will think it would save the auto industry, but he wants some help. Would you be willing to talk to him?" One of my theories of marketing is that you say, "Sure!" when you get the phone call. How do you know what is going to come when you disturb the universe? So, I said "Sure!" Al got me in to talk to this wonderful man, Tom Page. He was the head of Diversified Products, an internal supplier group. He had Steel and Casting, Climate Control, Electrical/ Electronics, Aerospace, Tractors...each one was like a major company.

Tom had this wonderful woman, Nancy Badore, who worked for him. They had been involved in employee involvement since '79. At that time, people were startled to discover workers had been leaving their brains in the parking lot. Workers would walk in, salute, and say, "How high?" Or they would get fired. When the UAW and Ford agreed on employee involvement in 1979, Tom experienced people pulling their brains in from the parking lot. He said, "The workers in our plants are using their brains and coming up with neat stuff. I'm worried because we trained our middle managers to 'kick ass and take names'." He said, "I can see what's happening! As they are working in small groups and using their brain power, they are going to start to point at my managers and say, 'Wait a minute, you're screwing us up!' And my middle managers, trained to kick ass and take names, are going to say, 'Get back to the floor...who the hell do you think you are?' And they are going to kill off employee involvement. I want our middle managers to do employee involvement. Can you train them to be more participative?" And I said, in what I have always considered to be a moment of total brilliance, "NO!" He said "Why not?" I said, "You just told me why not! If they were trained to kick ass and take names, and you send them to a training program designed by me, and let's say I do the best possible training program, they are going to walk out saying, 'That was wonderful, what a pity it won't work at Ford!' " It would be like a non-event, they won't change anything".

He said, "Well, what can I do then? I've got to do something." I said, "Beats me, but I'll think about it come back with a proposal." So, I came back to Ann Arbor and got together with Chuck Tyson, Bruce Gibb and Al Davenport. They were all like me, consultants who'd been trained in the sixties. We got together, and said, "we are really good—all four of us—at taking a leadership team and getting them all pointed in the same direction...getting them to work through conflicts, see the environment and figure out how to position themselves...getting them to learn to lead. We were really good at doing it with groups of 20 or 30...30 was really pushing the edge though...Prefer 10, right?" And we thought, if you're really going to bring about change, you are really going to make a difference, how do you do that? You better do it with everyone in the room. What a concept! How about if we took Tom's middle managers all at once...one division at a time? Let's blow the whole theory up with an air pump...let's just make it bigger! So we went back and said "Okay Tom, give us the top five layers of each division." The first division we worked with was Climate Control with an absolutely wonderful division general manager named Ed Hagenlacher. The top five layers would take us from the General Manager to direct reports to the plant managers. I think it was 100 people. We thought ooooooh big! Scared to death, right? Now I have done 2,400...what's 100? But at that point, it was big. We said "give us the 100".

I had read Rosabeth Cantor at that point. She said if you are a command and control organization, you have to command people to go to a participative management seminar. Because if you don't, they won't think you're serious! They'll think it's just another flavor of the month and blow it off. So you have to command it. We said to Tom, "You have to tell them they have to be there, every single person." We came up with this clever plan inspired from Rosabeth's work. If they couldn't come, they had to call Tom...mind you from 6 levels below him...they had to call and tell him why they couldn't come. They all came!

We held the first session in Henry Ford's old house in Dearborn...this wonderful old house called Fairlane. The room had old Henry in a bust on the fireplace. I remember him looking over my shoulder. From Ron Lippitt, I had the notion that we had to have max-mix tables—each a microcosm of the whole division. I recently brought this to my own full consciousness in talking to Marv Weisbord. When Marv and I were trying to figure out why he thinks he can only do 64 at a session and I have done 2400. We both grew up at the same knees, both learned from the same hearts. I realized that I believed, absolutely, without question, in the power of the microcosm to bring about system-wide change.

So we put them in max-mix tables so you had people on every level, from every part of the country, from finance, marketing, manufacturing, whatever. The table became a version of the whole. We said to Tom, "We are not going to preach participative management. We're going to do it. Give them to us for three days and we'll do it!" We didn't know what we were doing, we were making this thing up! We would give them the experience of participation and they would create their own version of it. We didn't know what would come out. They might have come out saying "command and control is the way, the truth and the light", for all we knew. Tom was pretty desperate so he let us try our ideas.

I remember standing up there in front of the first group, scared to death! Absolutely terrified, because Nancy Badore and I were the only two females in the room, and she wasn't up-front at the time...I was! And out there were these men—all white males from 40 to 60. I thought they all had the same suit on, they looked identical! They all were wearing rimless glasses. It looked like a bunch of clones. But what was cloned was not their appearance, I later figured out, it was their dead eyes. Because, you see, I didn't realize until that moment that they also left their brains in the parking lot!. They had been doing it for years...left their brains in the parking lot, came in, saluted and said "How high?" Just like the workers. I was so stunned by that!

As we made plans for how to get the conversation going, we used a change model we had learned from Dick Beckhart, "DxVxF>R". If you want to bring about change, first you have to combine around Dissatisfaction (D) with the way the things are going right now. If we keep going like this for another year, there will be no Ford Motor Company. There was nobody who thought that if they didn't change they could survive. So "D" turned out to be easy...we just had to get it articulated out there without everybody giving up.

"V" was a shared vision of what we could be...an image of what a real winner we could be. It had to be ennobling. And it had to be something I believed was remotely possible...it couldn't be pie in the sky. It had to be a vision I held individually and we held together.

"F" stood for first steps, not "flavor of the month"; although that's what it began to stand for! First steps that you and I agree actually could move us towards that vision. Ford, at that time, was sending everybody over to Japan to try to figure out what they were doing. How did they turn out cars that ran from the get-go? They didn't understand it! So they would go over and every one of them would come back with a different "F". So I would come back and I would say "Old man Deming, that's the answer! So they did that. And then someone else came back and said "Quality Circles!" And they did that. Somebody else said "Quality Function Deployment!" So all these different things came roaring back and would become the "flavor of the month".

So the formula said, if you want to bring about change you needed "D" times "V" times" "F", and the product had to be greater than "R" which stood for resistance to change. If any of those three was missing, the product would be zero. So we built the 3 day event around that.

What stunned us...on the third morning, third morning, all the eyes, all the eyes, came to life. We used to look at each other and say, "Holy shit, get out of the way, here they come. Oh my God, here they come!" It was an amazing experience! And then that last afternoon they did action planning and went home. They never had been in rooms together except to sit passively and listen to a chairman speak...they didn't know each other. But by the third morning they were connected. That was the "one brain and one heart" you heard me talk about. They became "one brain", they all saw the same things, and they all felt the same reactions, they all cared the same way.

Roger: Tell me about Ron Lippitt.

Kathleen: Ron died the same year my partner died which was 1986. He was about 74, so he grew up in the first three quarters of the century. He was a YMCA trainer in Iowa and met Kurt Lewin. Kurt put an ad on the bulletin board saying he wanted somebody to work on team stuff. Ron had been doing team stuff at the "Y" and signed up to be part of this research project without realizing, until later, that Lewin didn't have a clue what team stuff was.

Lewin went to MIT. Ron and a group of graduate students followed. They started inventing the theory of group dynamics. They were part of the OSS, Office of Strategic Services, during the Second World War which was the precursor, I think of the CIA. The OSS was training...I love this story...this may not be what you wanted to hear, but...

Roger: Can you do it briefly?!

Kathleen: I don't think I know how to do short stories! Good thing I lived a long life! They were training spies to be parachuted into occupied countries like France or Holland and to transmit information over wireless back to the allies. The OSS was having a terrible time...their spies were either getting killed off, getting themselves killed because they couldn't stand the suspense or they were turning into double agents! So they asked Lewin and his graduate students if they would figure out how to make it healthier for these spies.

Now picture this! I'm a spy and you are going to drop me behind the enemy lines. I'm going to live in a barn and talk on this little thing and tell you about troop movement? Give me a break, it's pretty lonely! So Lewin and his group—this is Ron's truth you understand—invented team building. They pulled together a group who were going to be spies in Europe and work on getting them connected—now I think of that as connected around the brain and the heart—so they all see and feel the same stuff; get bonded so that I care about you. Then they drop you in Italy and me in Denmark, living totally different lives, yet stay on target with the mission even though I never see you or talk to you again. Awesome, isn't it? That's where I learned about the power of "one brain and one heart".

You know about the Zeigarnic effect?. Ron told us this story. Debby Zeigarnic was a graduate student with Ron at MIT. They used to go over to this little coffee shop and talk...trying to figure out how to bring about change. They wondered which way would the waitress be more likely to remember the amount of their bill...before or after they paid her. So they decided to research it. They discovered that once you paid her and gave her the tip, she didn't have a clue what your amount was! But before you paid her and gave her the tip, she still had it in her brain. Debby thought that was fascinating and decided to do her Thesis on it. This is now called the Zeigarnic effect.

So, if you're doing training and you tidy it all up, if you make them tell you everything they learned and make them write it down, get it to a tick-off point, they won't keep learning. They will walk out the door and it's as if it never happened. That's the Zeigarnic effect. But leave the damn thing dangling like we did, so that the answers start emerging when they get home and they will never forget. That's how we created what we called "participative management seminars". That's what those were called.

Roger: Tell me more about Ron.

Kathleen: This group of graduate students who were learning and studying with Lewin decided they wanted to sell themselves as a package. They sold themselves to the University of Michigan and founded the Institute for Social Research. At the same time, they created the National Training Labs. They took this remote little town in Maine, because it was completely separate from anyone's experience, put the school there. At that moment Lewin died. So now the kids were on their own, so to speak. Ron started, I think, the Department of Social Psych, Behavioral Science at the University of Michigan and I had the privilege of going to class. I was just one of his students.

Roger: So if he were back today, what would you say to him?

Kathleen: I'd say, "Boy, were you right! Boy were you right! You knew it though." He was, in Myers-Briggs terms, a profoundly, archetypical INTJ! He knew he was right! He never had any question...he wouldn't need to hear it from me! He would be glad that I got it!

He was truly something. I wrote a eulogy for him in the NTL Newsletter. I said this man who knew everything and knew how to do it and knew he was right taught all of us to brainstorm. Each person's truth is truth. And he taught himself! He was saying I know I'm right but I ought to allow other people's truth to get in too. He taught us—emblazoned on my soul—you never work alone. Never! You cheat the client if you work alone. He taught us that each person's truth was truth and if you could get to wholeness, you got a better picture than any one person, even him, could come up with. I think that's wonderful.

Roger: How much of his work and your work is spiritual?

Kathleen: I can't answer for Ron. What I know about my own work is it is totally spiritual but then so is living, isn't it? I don' t see spiritual separate from anything. The spirit operates in me, one brain, one heart, one connected spirit.

Roger: So, what really matters to you? Right now? Today?

Kathleen: I will be 68 this Spring...scary...and I have a genetic disease that is destroying my legs. It's called Carcot Marie Tooth Disorder (CMT), 125 thousand Americans have it. It's a neuropathy. When you have neuropathy, I now know, you are always in pain. You are in pain in bed, you are in pain in a chair, you are in pain walking, you are in pain sitting, there is no time when you are out of pain. Well, that does shift a body a bit...I tell you! Holy Cow! My mother used to say you can get used to anything, even hanging, if you do it long enough! Well, I'm getting used to this. I don't remember what it was like before I had pain. I don't fight it any more.

This past year I have been searching for meaning in my life because it is a new chapter...a brand new chapter. It's not "Kathie Dannemiller making change happen". I can't do that anymore! Roland went back to India, I couldn't go...I literally couldn't go. My legs hurt so badly to be on a plane that long and on those terrible roads...I couldn't do it again. So, I'm rethinking, what is my meaning in life? You think you are asking me a simple question, but it's not. Meaning was always about understanding what we were doing, having a theoretical framework, understanding how to reproduce and grow it. How do I do that if I am not working full-time? If I truly retire I wouldn't learn anything new, that's the terror. Because everything I learned, I learned from my clients.

So, this past year I have been visiting the Valley of Despair: lack of hope and terror. I have a therapist who said last winter, "Kathleen, you have always been driven by what you could be five years from now. You can't do that anymore. There isn't a clear answer, you don't have the data to answer it. And you are not going to have that data until it is ready and it won't be ready until fall. Can you live with that?" I said, "Sure, I can live with that!" I went off to spend a month in Cornwall, living on the harbor, and a month in the Highlands of Scotland living on a fjord on the Atlantic Ocean. I thought I was going to die! It was like going through the stages of death and dying. I went through anger...bargaining...denial. I mean...it was awful! Whenever I was alone, all I did was cry...it was like, I don't want to end up this way. I want to be meaningful, vital and important to the world and to me. And I feel like a throwaway line. I couldn't figure out what I was about.

It's Fall now—it's even winter—and I think it's emerging. I think it is the thing I fought the hardest...'Guru-dom'. When Ron died, I thought, "Aw shit, now I don't have a Guru anymore!" Well, guess what, I met that Guru and it was me! So, what it's about is learning anew. I am learning about the microcosm anew...on a deeper level. Everything I thought I knew I am learning again but on a deeper and more meaningful level.

And what is my purpose? It seems kind of dorky, but I guess it is to make sure the legacy I leave is as whole as I can make. I don't need to be personally remembered, I don't need people sitting forty years from now talking to you about me. I don't need that! But I would like to feel that everything I know, feel and care about has gotten out there.

The feedback I am getting from people right now startles me! I was just out in Seattle at the School for Managing with Peter Block, Meg Wheatley, Patrick Dolan, the Axelrods, Elizabeth McGrath, Sam McGill and Bernie Doon. The feedback I got from the participants, but even more powerfully, from my buddies is that I brought magic into the room. It's just me! Funky old, glunky old me, operating in 100% pain all the time! When people say to me, "It really mattered that you were here", I realize that's what drives me, it has always driven me. Its got to matter that I was here. What can I offer to you that would make it worthwhile for you to have stopped here in Ann Arbor and talked to me. Don't make it a throw away line. I don't want to live any part of my life as a throw away line...make it real. Even though I am not spending massive time with clients, I am spending time with my partners teaching...but it's more than teaching. It's being. I think I am being it, instead of doing it.

I want people I can look up to and learn from. Peter Block said to me one day, "What would it take to get you to own the school, Kathie, not just be a participant?" I said, "It would take me having the chance to learn from you, Peter...to learn from Meg...the Axelrods...Patrick Dolan...Peter Kessenbaum." I don't have an in-house Guru anymore. Ron's gone. He would confront me. The more senior you get, the fewer people confront you. They confront you in their minds, then they go away and they talk about you. And so, we do learn from and confront each other in the School for Managing.

I have a profound Christian belief. I believe, as absolutely as I believe in the power of the microcosm, that the spirit of God operates within me. I believe there is a path for me. I don't know why I believe in that, but I do. "His eye is on the sparrow" means his eye is on me. God's watching and he has a plan for this little microcosm creature I am. My job is to figure out the plan. So I say, "I know what I am supposed to do next". Then I start doing it and the world goes whack, whack, whack up each side of my head...then I say, "Well, that was wrong!" Then I change directions. I have lived my whole life that way.

Kaysie was born in 1963...I was 34. She was my fourth child. My third, Robert, was born 'yella' from jaundice. The Doctor said it was a blood incompatibility. I had an ectopic pregnancy when I was 21 and they had to put in 11 pints of blood. They put large "C" factor into my blood when I was a small "C" factor. They said, don't have another child...it will be worse. And I thought, "Ooooooh, I wanted to have a girl!" Is that dumb? I don't know. I wanted to have a girl! I had three boys. "Come on God, I want a girl!" And so I got pregnant...right away. I knew the longer I waited the less chance it would work. They watched the baby very carefully. At eight months they said she is already affected. "We've got to get her born!" They induced her.

I was awake when she was born and the doctor says, "Hey Kathleen, it's a girl!" The next thing he said was, "And she is very yellow. We've got to move fast to exchange her." They immediately did an exchange of her blood...they would take 1/4 ounce of blood out and put fresh blood in. It took two hours and it drained her. I remember going over to the nursery...she was very pale and very listless. On Saturday morning the pediatrician came in and said that her bilirubin count was going up, which was the jaundice count. At that time they believed when it went as high as 15 she would be brain damaged. It was at 12. Between Thursday and Saturday, they had done two exchanges. The pediatrician said, "We need you to decide. She is going to need to be exchanged again. If we do another one this morning, we don't think she can live; she's not strong enough. If we don't do it she may be brain damaged. We need you to choose." I said, "Do it!" I picked up the phone and called my husband, told him what I had done, and asked if he agreed. He did and I said, "get down here" and hung up.

About two months before, we had joined the First Presbyterian Church in Ann Arbor which had a new senior Minister, Ernie Campbell. He was this incredible, articulate, born-again kind of person in a church that was scornful about born agains. We joined the church because he was there. After I called Bill, I called the church and I said to the secretary, "Would you be good enough to put a rosebud on the altar tomorrow morning in honor of my daughter who was born Thursday?" And she said, "It's too late. The time to put the rosebud on the altar is next Sunday". And I said, "I can't be sure that she'll be alive next Sunday and it would mean a lot to me to have it on the altar right now." She called the "number two" minister—Ernie was not there—a wonderful gentle, treasured human being named Malcolm Brown, whom I hardly knew. Before Bill got to the hospital, Malcolm was there. Bill, Malcolm, and I went over and looked at the baby in the incubator...she was bright yellow and very weak looking. We went back into my room and Malcolm said, "Can we have a word of prayer before I go." This is the way I remember it. He said "Lord, if it is your will, let this child live. If it is not your will to let this child live, give this young couple the courage to deal with it." And then he said...and for me it was my transformational moment...like God speaking from above..."Thy will be done." And I thought, "Right!" I didn't say anything...I just thought "Right." Malcolm left. Bill and I didn't talk about it...I didn't tell him what had happened. I didn't know what happened to me. I just felt different...the whole burden was lifted. It was amazing! An hour later, in the door walks the pediatrician and she says, "It's a miracle, Kathie, her biliruben just dropped! We don't have to exchange." I remember looking at her and looking up and saying in my head "That was a little showy! You didn't need to do a burning bush. I had accepted it." Is that too much? Clearly she lived...without brain damage. Her name is Kathleen Cosgrove. We call her Kaysie.

I came home and called Ernie and asked him to come over. I still hadn't told Bill. I hadn't told anyone. I told Ernie what happened. I said "What do I do with that? I don't know what it means. I'm a different person." Suddenly the concept that you can't put new wine in old wineskins meant something to me. I said to Ernie, "I think something happened to me but I don't know what. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's just an illusion or fantasy." He says "It is an important moment and we need to find the new wineskins." Bill had been going to a born-again church until we joined First Presbyterian. I said, "I go to those born-again churches and they say you must accept the Lord as your Savior and be born again. But that doesn't tell me what the new skin looks like." And Ernie says, "How about coming to adult education classes and let's figure it out?" I went to Malcolm's class, studied Dietrich Bonhoffer and began to create a new wineskin. That was December of '63...in July of '64 I went to Bethel for the first time. I went there because my husband sent me...trying to fix me...make me a better wife.

I was in a 2-week personal growth lab with Joyce Weir—an incredible woman—in which my definition of myself shifted. I experienced a second-level paradigm shift. In the hospital, the message was "You are born again!" The neon sign over Bethel said, "Here's the new wineskin." It was more than Bonhoffer. It was group dynamics. It was me! That year—in '63 and '64—is when I created the "whole" that became the new me. I spent the next 10 years trying to live up to the image I got of myself at Bethel.

One of the things I had to do was leave my husband, which was extraordinarily difficult. I believed I was married to him for life, but I had to leave him in order to live out the image I got of me. And it broke my heart!

This isn't a profession...this is a calling. I am called to make sure that it matters I'm here. That nothing in my life is a throw away line. Nothing! Everything I say to you...everything I say to Kaysie...everything I say to a client...to a partner, has meaning. What I'm up to with you is I want it to matter that you were here. I don't care what you write about me. I want it to matter to you, Roger, that you were here. Period. End of paragraph.